headupinclouds's blog

 A date yeast water pizza crust with delayed fermentation from [here]

Mixed up a dough for pizza with 572 g of CM artisan bread flour, 411 g date and apple yeast water, 12 g salt, 20 g EVOO, and 10 g SD (as a hedge).  70 turns in the food processor + some Rubaud then in the fridge.  I'm curious how that will compare to the 3 g of yeast called for in BBA.

This took a *very* long time to ferment, with several failed attempts to get the proof going before dinner, after which I returned the dough to the fridge.  It was in the fridge for 1 week in total before I managed to time the wake up properly and make dinner.  Surprisingly the dough had no degradation.

In the initial mix, the dough developed (e.g., the gluten) very quickly, perhaps because of the acids from the DYW.  It was an interesting learning experience, as I have not experimented with dough conditioners, which I suspect have a similar effect.  At the time of shaping (after 1 week), the dough was still very elastic, and did not display any signs of breakdown or improved extensibility that is associated with the traditional IDY variant.

It took a very long time to shape this highly elastic dough, which took some force.  It was not a particularly notable crust, but a decent pizza overall, with Maitake mushrooms, olives, artichoke hearts, and cultured plant based cheeses. 

It was an interesting experiment, although if I were to use yeast water again, I would try it with more the more traditional one or two stage levain.

Another young vs ripe levain comparison for a desem culture maintained at 60 F.  At this time I was feeding 2x daily at roughly 5:3:5. This is a tortoise vs hare race.  The mature levains take an early lead, and the young levain eventually catches up with a sprint at the end. 

• mix 250 g flour at 66% hydration w/ 2% salt
• 90 turns in food processor total
• 20 turns to mix levains
• yellow: pH 4.55; 25:125  2% salt
• blue: pH 3.8; 25:125 2% salt

11:00 start

17:05: blue takes early lead

19:17: blue has peaked and is starting to fall

20:18: yellow is already the winner 

21:42: yellow starting to fall

Occasionally I end up with small portions of the sames starter in various states and thought it would be useful to to document leveaning capability of the levain as a function of pH, given similar maintenance.

I have been leaning more on pH for maintenance and tuning of my desem cultures.  While the standard volume increase still provides some feedback, small changes in hydration in the 50-60% range can have a significant impact on the dough strength and the ability for CO2 to expand it, and it is difficult to separate the dough properties from starter properties when observing it in a jar.  It seems pH has the potential to be a more hydration invariant measure of maturity, although I'm sure it isn't a magic solution, as I suspect there are many ways the same culture can arrive at the same pH with different microbe states -- a starter that was refreshed 12 hours ago and has reached a pH of X is different than a more acidic starter that has just been fed with a whole wheat to achieve the same pH of X due to buffering of the flour. Since what we ultimately care about is the ability of the starter to leaven dough, I tried a very quick (and very casual) experiment comparing the same culture with 3 different final builds that resulted in slightly different pH values (all maintained at 58 F): (1) build N (yellow band) at close to 2:1:2 after 24 hours with a pH of 4.08; (2) build N+1 (feed of N) at 2:1:2 (red) after approximately 12 hours; (3) build N+1 which was the same as (2) but with a little extra hydration for faster fermentation, maybe 20:13:20 or similar.  I mixed bread flour with 2% salt at a fairly stiff hydration in the food processor, and split it into 3 equal 150 gram portions.  I inoculated each of the 3 portions with a separate 15 g sample from each of the different starters (not equal % PFF, but close).  I tried to be as consistent as I could.  It was a couple of weeks ago, but I believe I folded it in by hand and continued mixing each one in the food processor for a similar time period or number of turns.  I was primarily interested in how much variation there would be across starters, rather than trying to making any conclusions about a best pH from a single experiment.  This was thrown together in the morning, using an old bag of Gold Medal flour that I wouldn't use for bread at this point and I felt comfortable sacrificing it.  Progress was documented during the day by photos.  It could be a starting point for more carefully controlled and repeated experiments.  I also wanted to test the volume increase of my LKBB desem culture.  The two younger (higher pH) starters (blue and red) both started faster, but the two lowest pH starters (yellow and blue) had the highest rise, with blue resulting in the largest increase overall.

Of course there is a lot that could be improved here, but it is interesting that there were fairly similar, when considered in relation to the impact of dough handling and fermentation in an actual bake.  I would guess the younger (12 hour pH 4.3) starter might have the potential to produce a slightly more aerated loaf, despite the slightly lower % PFF relative to the stiffer red version.  They all started at the same height (same weight within a gram or so), but the initial photo was taken after initial signs of fermentation.

This is my second attempt at home solod (unroasted this time).  

• Soak and sprout rye until the sprout length is equal to the length of the rye berry
• Keep solod in mini incubator at 105 F for 6 days (1st day in multi-cooker before moving to incubator)
• Partially dry slowly on baking sheet at 115F, then overnight in strainer with fan
• Grind with mortar and pestle

I stopped it after 6 days as the berries were plump, malty, and popped with rye goop when pinched.  I had read reports of mold and didn't want to keep it going much longer.  This was a wild fermentation, and perhaps kickstarting it with a rye starter is necessary.  I had already started the process before reading [this] thread, that suggests kickstarting it with sourdough culture.

It is reddish, but not nearly as dark as the photo of solod in this [thread].  If "light roast" coffee is an option, then perhaps "light solod" is an option.

Our on-again-off-again gas oven is kaput again until the landlord fixes it.  The gas burners and electric ignition work fine, so this points to the ignition unit.  It will be fixed, but it has triggered a search for 1/2 size (or smaller) countertop combi ovens that we would like better and would work on our 120 V 20 amp circuits -- 1920 watts is the recommended upper limit.  With these limitations, the Anova Precision Oven (which has been discussed frequently on this site) seems to be one of the few options, and despite its drawbacks, it would be nice to have a small baking friendly oven with steam that also supports unattended overnight bakes (pumpernickel), proofing, dehydrating, and fermenting, for things like tempeh.  There really don't seem to be any combi countertop ovens that would address the APO reliability issues (even in Miele range or similar).  I've also considered 240 volt units with a step up transformer with similar power requirements.

This has pointed to a pressing question.  How do I bake in the immediate future without the oven?  I picked up 25 lbs of rye berries from the GrowNYC headquarters in the Bronx, and am otherwise ready for my next rye community bake.  This post will serve as a collection of bookmarks to address the technical questions of baking in (indoor) oven alternatives.

Stovetop Dutch Ovens:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64722/toaster-oven-sourdough-big-success : dutch oven for spring, then toaster for browning

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41508/anthracite-special-platform-9%C2%BE

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21800/stove-top-debacle

Instant Pot and Pressure Cooked Bread:

https://www.hippressurecooking.com/pressure-cooker-bread-less-energy-less-time-real-bread/

https://theflavorbells.com/bread-in-instant-pot/

I received The Bread Baker's Apprentice as a gift this year, which I hadn't baked from yet.  I also have a bag of Central Milling's Old World Bread Flour I got this Fall, which is my favorite bread flour I've tried so far, but due to my fondness for whole grain home milling, I haven't been using it.  I put them together to make Reinhart's simple Pizza Napoletana recipe and to get some practice with instant yeast.

574 g flour

12.5 salt

3 g yeast

25 g olive oil

411 g water

Mix, develop gluten (I used a food processor), place in fridge for 24 hours or more.

All my previous pizza efforts used sourdough, which makes shaping pizza a fragile endeavor, so this plunge into instant yeasted dough made for strong and extensible dough that was a real pleasure to shape.

Our gas oven has resulted in pale lifeless crusts in the past, so I picked up a large stainless steel mixing bowl a while ago to complement the Fibrament baking stone, which works pretty well.  I shape 255 g balls into 11-12 inch pies, and cook on the stone at above about 580 F (with enough patience the stone will reach close to 600 F), then hold it under the broiler flame by the floor on a baking tray for a minute or so to add a little more color.  

This used cultured plant base cheese, mushrooms and olives. 

[UPDATE]

#1 Rugbrod by Jennifer Lapidus from Southern Ground

I chose Rugbrod, as I was looking for an easy naturally leavened traditional rye bread that called for a single whole rye grind that would be friendly to home milling.  I had also made Vollkornbrot a few times and wanted to try something different.  I chose this recipe because (as usual) Benny's post [LINK] included every detail I needed to bake it, it looked fabulous, and I didn't have to look anything up.  Rugbrod also seemed fairly popular on TFL, with three or more bakes in the last week.  I bought an ebook copy of her book Southern Ground after it came out last year and admire her bread journey.  She apprenticed with with Allan Scott and ran a bakery in NC before founding a mill, Carolina Ground.  She is featured on episode 57 of the Rise Up! bread and baker podcast [LINK].  Carolina ground flour can be purchased [HERE].

I baked per the instructions in Benny's post, but substituted 1 1/2 tsp honey for the sorghum, which I don't have.  I baked it in a covered Pullman pan after I noticing about 6 pinholes on the top, as suggested, and the pH was approximately 4.3.  The loaf was removed from the pan for the final 20 minutes and baked open on each side to firm up the crust -- a recommendation from Dan after my first Pullman rye bake.  I've had some questions about how to mill rye, but ended up milling this one rather finely, as I would for whole wheat, with the stones just barely ticking.  The freshly milled rye sour was very lively and the whole process moved along very quickly.  After reading about hard crusts, I wrapped it in a cotton cloth as it cooled overnight and sliced it the following evening.  It seemed to bake well as the knife came out clean and the flavor is excellent.  I haven't had a lot of rye, and I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement, but I really like the flavor and texture of this bread.  I'm curious how far the seeds can be pushed.  The flavor jumps out much more than the Vollkornbrot loafs I have baked previously using combinations of more coarsely milled rye flour and now I'm curious to compare and contrast the recipes.

[UPDATE]

#2 Westphalia Rye by Ginger (from gingerandbread.com)

Per the recipe [HERE] (discussed previously on TFL), but with the following changes:

• agave syrup instead of golden syrup (I don't have any)
• home milled rye, with a best guess for fine rye meal and perhaps a slightly too fine coarse grit
• greased jars with coconut oil
• baked in sealed Weck jars inside a multi-cooker (pressure cooker)
  • high (estimated 250F) for 1 hour
  • low (estimated 212F) for 15 hours (the timer has a 6 hour limit, so I had to reset it twice)

I'm currently oven-less, as discussed in a recent blog entry, and this steered me towards making this Pumpernickel bread that calls for a long slow bake, which I thought could be approximated in the multi-cooker.  I also have more confidence in leaving that unattended for long periods, so it would be preferable even if my oven was working.  The Icelandic Lava Bread post (sealed and buried in hot spring sand) in the Rye CB gave me some confidence that a sealed "sous vide" cooking approach might work for this 100% rye.  I'm not sure how significant the pressure will be, it seems reduced pressure would be preferable, but I thought it would work fine for this dense bread.

I baked a little longer as I was uncertain of the temperature at "low" and figured erring on the side of overbaking would be preferable.  The measured internal temperature of 204F was somewhat reassuring.  The bread slipped out of the jars without any problem, and the outer loaf started to firm up as it cooled.  I wrapped the mini loaf towers in a tea towel, and will allow them to cool for at least a couple of days at room temperature before sliding into them.

#3 Simple Rye with Coriander by Martadella (as documented [here])

• rye sour build pH @ 3.75
• final mix (unrecorded)
• end final proof pH @ 4.31

This one came out slightly gummy in my first attempt.  I was still using finer home milled rye from a two stage coarse-to-fine process.  Since this bake I have switched to a coarser grind.   

#4 Rugbrod by Jennifer Lapidus (again) 

I really liked the crumb and the texture of the crust on the first Rugbrod bake (documented above) and wanted to see if it was repeatable.    I was juggling a few things on the weekend and didn't portion the dough for the pan, but the otherwise the bread itself was excellent.  I'm very happy with this formula and process using my flour and starter.  The crumb is moist but not gummy and the crust has a subtle enjoyable crunch to it.  I used a slightly coarser grind of rye in this bake and will try that for the next few rye bakes.

• 75 g starter pH 3.72 from scraped jar build overnight at 100% hydration
• rye sour build 75:150:100 start pH @ 4.75; end pH @ 3.89; final mix pH @ 4.63
• made without the sweetener this time -- the flavor is still very nice, but the salt should be dialed back without to match it
• overall still very nice -- my favorite rye so far

A blog entry to maintain notes on my attempt to follow Omer Gevaert's original recipe for desem posted by mariana and described in detail HERE.  I previously followed the recipe in Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book and am interested in comparing them.

I'm starting with some Sonora soft white wheat berries II have had sitting around unused for some time.

 Soft White Wheat Desem (Take 1)

1/06/22 11:30 PM soak 300 g berries

1/07/22 11:00 PM strain berries and sit overnight in wine fridge

1/08/22 3:15 PM rinse berries, grind 1/4 of the berries coarsely in a blender, make a ball and place in weck jar covered in freshly milled flour, leave remaining berries in wine fridge to sprout

1/10/2022 6:30 PM: Remove ball from flour; separate and discard crusty rind; combine the soft inner portion of the dough ball with the newly sprouted wheat berries and pulse in a food processor to mash it up together taking care to minimize heat (max 75F) -- these sprouts were started in the wine fridge to kick-start the process and moved to the fridge to slow things down once the sprouts appeared (they felt very dry, so a few tablespoons of water was used to help the food processor break them down).   I had concerns about the increased hydration, and started another one using a mix of hard red and white wheat berries.

1/13/2022 6:30 PM: Remove ball; peel off rind; temperature 60 F and pH 4.36; smells sugary sweet (like melon); stiff feed w/ flour only (started sprouts for subsequent feeds) @ 1:2 (estimated 60% hydration by feel);  make a ball, dust in flour and bind with linen cloth + twine

I had concerns that I added too much water to make the soft white wheat berry pulp.  It felt mushy and not like a stiff ball (see lower left ball on 1/10/2022 montage summary), so I restarted the experiment with a mix of hard red and white wheat berries (perhaps more typical) with the aim of lowering hydration this time around.  I may continue the stiff and soft feedings with this one on alternate days to see how this one behaves.

Hard Red + White Wheat Desem (Take 2)

1/10/22 6:30 PM: Soak 300 g mix of hard red and white wheat berries

1/11/22 6:30 PM: Drain berries, make pulp from 1/4 of contents patiently without using additional water (I used a smaller BlendTec Twister jar this time instead of the food processor as the volume was a better match for pulping the smaller quantity of berries and the twister allows me to scrape berries off of the jar side while it was on); make a stiff ball and place in the wine fridge at 60 F covered in flour; place remaining berries bake in the wine fridge to sprout.

1/13/22 6:30 PM: Remove the dough ball from the wine fridge, extract the soft inner core and discard the rind; make a pulp from the remaining sprouted wheat berries and combine with the reserved young culture to make a stiff ball; place back in the wine fridge covered in flour at 60 F; soak new hard white wheat berries to make sprouts for subsequent chef/levain feeds

1/14/22 6:30 PM: Remove soaked wheat berries, drain and place back in the wine fridge to sprout for chef/levain feeds (this is a key step for the first stiff feeding of the culture after the 3-day incubation -- it takes a couple of days and I hadn't prepared properly in my first attempt documented above)

1/16/22 6:30 PM: Remove the dough ball from the wine fridge, extract the soft inner core and discard the rind (this one does smell like pickled apples as described mariana's writeup here!); blend sprouted hard white wheat berries with ample water to make a pancake batter and mix with the reserved culture and freshly milled flour to form a stiff ball; cover with flour, bind in linen napkin with twine and wrap the entire bundle under pressure with a wide elastic exercise band (I hold one end of the band on the floor with my heel, and roll up the linen desem package under pressure)

1/17/22 9:30 PM : Remove the dough ball from the wine fridge (60 F), extract the soft inner core and discard the rind; make a soft levain with freshly milled flour at 1:3 ratio; leave at room temperature until peak; initial pH @ 4.37; refreshed pH 1:3 @ 4.69

1/18/2022 8:00 AM: Soft levain peaks at about 2x and begins falling (approximately 6:00 AM); blend 200 g sprouted wheat berries with 100 g water to make a feeding pulp; mix starter with equal parts wet pulp and freshly milled flour in 1:3 ratio to form a stiff ball (estimated 65% hydration by feel) and place in wine fridge at 60 F; place the remaining pulp in fridge (< 40 F); pH of levain at mix = 4.27; temperature 70.6 F (21.2 C)

Two desem bakes with home milled Red Fife (my previous attempt used a converted starter). 

This differs from my previous attempt in that it uses:

• a home grown desem (from the same Red Fife wheat)
• a lower percentage of PFF (10%)
• higher hydration (79% and 81% (this would have been problematic with the previous starter))
• retarded overnight final proof
• shorter 1.5 to 2 hour soaker (based on comments in a TFL community whole grain bake about long autolyse)
• ambient temperature of roughly 80F

The home grown desem effort was motivated by Mariana's comments.

The lower PFF was motivated by Debra's comments on inverse relationships between PFF and hydration levels as well as the lower PFF used by Jennifer Lapidus for her desem section in her book Southern Ground (former apprentice of Alan Scott), and mdw's success at low hydration with his converted starter (and most TFL bakers in general with whole grain sourdough baking (idaveindy, etc)).

I had assumed a high PFF and a hot final proof were requirements of desem baking, but above discussions make me think it is mostly the starter itself, as there is quite a lot of variation in the approached presented in LKBB, The Bread Builders, Bread, and Southern Ground (the latter using the popular cold final proof at higher hydration).  

Basic formula: https://fgbc.dk/1na0

I ground Red Fife berries (from breadtopia) 1 click back from ticking in a single stage and used a fairly short 1.5-2 hour soaker.  I used a warmish room temperature BF to roughly 60% for the first one and a slightly lower 50% in the second one after getting a flatter loaf than I like in the first attempt.  The final proof ran overnight in the fridge with a measured final temperature of close to 40F.  I baked covered for 35 minutes (Challenger pan) and uncovered for 5 minutes.  I left the oven dial at 400F (which gives me a temperature somewhere between 450F and 475F).

First one (81% hydration (slightly flat)):

Second one (79% hydration):

I'm quite happy with the result using the new starter and this approach.  Unfortunately, with hot temperatures arriving in NYC, I'm doing much less baking in the apartment now.

Inspired by Benny's red fife bakes, and an earlier red fife by @suminandi that caught my eye, I wanted to see what I could learn from working with this flavorful but fermentation intolerant heritage grain.  I'll be doing a few bakes with this one using desem at different percentages of PFF.

Based on Benny's baking notes and comments from others, I erred on the side of caution in this one, and it might be a little underfermented.

Details to follow.

Update:

• 20% PFF
• hydration by feel in lower 70's
• final pH 4.12 (very sour to taste)